Monday, June 2, 2008

Disagree with me DANG IT!

At the age of 7 I was challenged about my religion by kids in my carpool. They didn't criticize, but they asked me to explain. In my 7th grade English class I remember the entire class questioning me about my beliefs about abstinence from sex and alcohol. This happened frequently though out my formative years- and I give these instances of my peers challenging me credit for my strong beliefs. At a very young age I had to find out if what I believed was true or not.

Now in my 30's it seems like either my friends agree with me or don't say anything at all. My two closest friends will disagree with me- and my family will disagree, but the rest? They hold their opinions to themselves.

I was hanging out with some good friends last weekend, one of which I know had very different political opinions, but when it came to politics he got silent.

Which got me thinking- why? Why is it that co-workers grow silent when we talk of world issues? Why is it that when I'm speaking with friends about political issues that either people agree or become mute?

My political opinions have changed IMMENSELY over the past year. I'm always open to new arguments. Heck, I voted for Obama and now I'm thinking the country would be better off with Clinton! (who am I?)

Call me a flip-flopper but if someone presents new evidence I'll evaluate that evidence and change my mind. I actually really enjoy it when people disagree with me and can be civil about it.

Is this just something I experience or does this happen to everyone? Am I the only one that likes discussing politics in the company of friends? Is it normal for people not to share their political opinions? Or am I just so terribly combatitive and offensive that few want to discuss such topics with me? Or, could it be- that I really AM always right and terribly convincing that I change the opions of all those I speak with.

It's got to be the last one.


brent said...

Well, now since you've asked...I'll make sure you hear from me more often. :)

adam said...

I imagine some people are intimidate by you, and just want to get along, lol. I was at first. :) You have an open and sometimes hard-hitting style that can throw people off. Knowing myself, I often worry more about relationships than directness.

The UnMighty said...

Ok, here goes. I believe that men convicted of violent sex crimes should be castrated. In my opinion this accomplishes a number of goals. 1) It decreases their sex drive 2) It eliminates the possibility of them ever fathering children 3) It may make extended prison sentences unnecessary 4) It may be a more effective deterrent than the alternative (not a cure-all of coarse, but it may work more effectively on some) 5) It gives the offended a chance to cut the offenders balls off.

And I think people who commit violent sex crimes against children deserve decapitation.

There you go. Let's have a dialogue.

PS. I like Obama and Clinton better than McFather-Time.

Tom Quinn. said...

I don't know what your politics are, and I don't care. You should run for office. Can I give you money?

......Wait a minute......Damn, you're good.

Vanilla Vice said...

The reason people have stopped arguing with you, or even discussing things with you is that you don't hang out with enough trial attorneys and/or douche bags. And yes, sometimes they're one and the same.

Typically, as you get older, people are set in their political beliefs, and when you are well rehearsed and logical, a person of sound mind won't debate you and allow emasculation or humiliation. It's easier to be peaceful and maintain decorum. They are sticking by the age old "never talk about politics, money, or religion". That's why I try and cover all three on a date.

I will school you for voting for Obama. They will be personal attacks as I believe you must be naive, historically challenged, and clearly not an economist. Unless you were participating in operation chaos, then all is forgiven.

Ben & Kimberly McEvoy said...

Wow, Kory, you had some really good points there. I didnt realize those things in your post were true. I would have to say, I uhh... totally agree with everything you just said. I didnt vote for Barack, but maybe I should have, and maybe I should vote for Hillary now. I dont know. Maybe you could tell me what I should do. You seem to know. Anyway, thanks. Good stuff.

BTW, I am guessing that is not the response you were looking for. I havent been reading many blogs lately, but this one was funny. I love that you are annoyed noone disagrees with you. I also love that you dont mind being wrong. That is why it is hard to talk politics. You really only have wrong answers in my opinion right now. So arguing for Barack, who is the only one with morals exhibited in his personal and family life, but is wrong on just about all of his stances, is just as tough as arguing for the guy that I think is right a bit more often on his stances, McCain, but is a slimeball in his personal life. Dont even waste time on Clinton, she is a big 0-fer everything. wrong and phony. I feel sorry for her though.

And for the sake of argument. the unmighty is close but wrong. you screw with a kid, your done. Capital P, in my opinion. We dont put nearly enough people down. You go explain and justify to your maker. You got nothing useful here to do.

Steve said...

First of all, the only person that should be castrated is "the unmighty". What a lame thread jacker!

But to the real point, Salty, having not debated you person, I can't comment on that. But most people, ESPECIALLY Americans don't like confrontation and are more worried about making someone upset than to discuss the important things in life such as politics and religion. Also, most people in this country seem to lack the maturity to have a civil conversation about either one without take it personal; ie John McCain and Pres. Bush.

Deep discussions about the issues is one of the main reasons I fell in love with K. I don't know too many relationships where a loud and heated discussion of the strikers in France lead to marriage, haha, but it did for us. It was a make or break moment for us.

Also, maybe you just need more interesting friends! :)

Britt said...

I find that when people will not have a healthy debate with you it is because of two things.....1. they know they will lose or 2. They do not want to get you mad. (They can not handle!)
You know Brock and I love to discuss politics and other world my question to you is WHAT THE HECK WHERE YOU THINKING VOTING FOR OBAMA!!!!!!????
Okay you may be angry about how Romney was being treated but come on.....OBAMA? You are going over to the dark side girl. (oh and by the way I am typing this very civilly)lolol
Well Kory If you need someone to discuss things with just pick up the phone and call your siter in-law. I love opinionated people! They are thinkers.
hugs, Britt

Sarah said...

Frankly, people don't know how to achieve a civil dialogue about controversial topics anymore. It's like people don't think there's anything between demure agreement and Jerry Springer-esque chair- throwing or something. It's too bad, because a good political debate is a nice way to spice up an otherwise boring day at work.

Salt H2O said...

Brent- Looking forward to your contentous arguments :)

Adam- I am pretty hard hitting. I probably don't come across as easily pursuaded. I'm glad I can always count on you and Steve to be the devil's advocates.

Unmighty- I agree but only on the 2nd offense. There are guys who get acused of rape because a girl can.

Tom- I'm opening up a pay pal account just for you.

Vice- You know how on Seinfeld the dentist became a Jew just for the jokes. Well, registering as a democrat was a lot like that for me. I can spout off my exceptionally conservative opinions and then when I get attacked for being a manipulative spend loving republican I can say "woa! hold on there, I'm a democrat!"

Since I live in Utah, I knew Mitt Romney had the vote in the primary so my vote for Mitt was some what useless- he had the state. So thinking that Obama was the lesser of two evils on the left, I voted for him. Now I regret that vote. I decided it's better to have some one conniving and manipulative as president rather than some one who is charming and inexperienced. I wish I had voted for Hillary. But I contributed to Mitt Romney.

Salt H2O said...

Ben/Kim- That's what I think is so great about discussing politics right now, there is no right answers. I can't believe McCain supports the new Liberman bill which increases taxes on carbon emissions. I thought we were trying to LOWER the price of gas!

There is so much going on right now it's a shame that most don't want to discuss the political landscape.

You're right people take politics way too personally. I think most people take disagreement in general personally. If we don't get emotional about disagreement we could all end up being better people having seen an argument from a different light.

Britt- See what I responded to Vice as to why I voted for Obama. Mitt didn't need my vote in Utah, and at the time I thought Obama was the lesser of two evils- since then I've changed my mind. I should have voted for Hillary.

You are so right. People walk on egg shells around me when they find out I'm Mormon- especially at work. I love discussing my faith, and any faith- I like discussing money and I love discussing politics. You're absolutely right- it's a great conversation to spice up the work day.

f*bomb. said...

You are always right.

It isn't so much about right and wrong, as it is about a different perspective. And really, all perspectives varying from our own can be interesting in their own right because they are formed through individual experiences. Which is valuable simply because- to those I care about, knowing their background which forms their opinions makes them that much more interesting and valuable to me.

The only time I DON'T care to bother voicing my own opinion is when I:
a) don't have the energy to deal with a blowhardy nimwit
b) don't really care about the other person's opinion, nor do I want to know them better
c) don't care to hear my own opinion so much as someone else's (unless asked for it)

Maybe the audience just doesn't know you well enough to understand that you are seeking a genuine exchange; not a mute audience.

Sally said...

Sarah's comment is right on. So...ditto that.

Tom Quinn. said...

Salty, I think raising taxes on carbon emissions WOULD lower the price of gas, but I have to admit I'm speaking a little ignorantly.

-and steve is right, The UnMighty is a SERIOUS "thread jacker."

-so, does that mean he's one of those people that can't help but pull on a sweaters loose threads until the whole garment falls apart. DANG IT!! I hate being so ignorant.

Cameron said...

I totally agree. I sometimes ask people their opinion on something even when I already know what it is, just so we can argue. I enjoy understanding other people's arguments and why they think that way.

Those that don't speak up either don't know how to disagree without getting mad, or they think you don't know how to disagree without getting mad.

I think that's why blogging is kinda fun. Everyone feels free to spout off because no one really knows the people they're talking to.

I have really honed my debate skills through blogging, and even better is that I have learned all sorts of things about what I believe and how to express it well. I think if everyone could learn how to argue, listen, and express their views then the world would be a better place.

Anonymous said...

Remember that you live in Bountiful Utah...very white bread community. Not much controversy going on there - ever! So expect no response to a comment. Unless, of course, you hit a nerve with what you say. Consider just saying something like, "I think BYU ought to get rid of all it's sports programs and become like the Clairmont colleges in California - or Oxford." That might cause a stir.

Kam said...

My friend and I say, "I am going to agree, that we disagree..." before we start any argument... It works for us... and I am silent when I don't know what the hell I am talking about. It drives me nuts when dumb people have opinions on things they don't know enough about. I love ya Kory keep your strong opinions coming! I love it!

adam said...

Cameron - speaking of debate, I am still interested in what you have to say regarding Connor Boyack's post on gay marriage... I responded to you a while back with an inquiry there to which you have not responded yet. I'm assuming you haven't seen it yet. I am genuinely interested in what you have to say regarding the evidence on gay vs. hetero parents.

Steve said...

I love the fact that I got Tom (and hopefully more others) to start referring to you as "Salty"! "Mission Accomplished", indeed!

Della Hill said...

You're totally wro-
Sorry, I just can't do it.

Carrie & Karl said...

Many of the people who don't argue back are probably like I am on some issues; they believe strongly about something, but only believe it because they have been told it their entire lives.
I realized this was a problem for me, so little by little I have been researching topics and deciding what I really felt about them. I haven't gotten around to all issues yet, but I have made decisions on the following:
Pro-choice: it is a woman's right to decide what to do with her own body, she does however have the responsibility to make decisions beforehand (use birth control instead of abortions).
Cell phones: can be great, but don't use them while driving or at check out stands, and if you can't pay your bills, don't get a cell phone.
Religion: decide what you believe in and live that way, don't say your church is important to you and then not follow the guidelines given you from that church.
I have other ones I've researched, but those are the ones that came to mind first.

Allie said...

Like anonymous said, you live in Ut. People probably either really do agree with you, or they are so tired of hearing repeats from Sean Hannity that they have no energy left to debate you.


I personally like debating as long as the person I'm debating doesn't pull the "ha ha, that's so ridiculous that you believe that" stunt. I have a brother-in-law that does that, and I don't debate much with him anymore.

I'll disagree with you anytime! (And I'll still find you entertaining (but not in a "ha ha, that's so ridiculous that you believe that" sort of way).