Friday, November 7, 2008

For the LOVE Of PETE!

Here I was hoping to spend my Friday singing Kumbaya with my fellow man, drink hot chocolate and maybe do some work but shabam! Local new talks about how the No on 8 campaign is violently protesting the LDS church- not just in California but IN UTAH?

Seriously? No- really? Are you kidding me? In Utah? Well hell, with that rational I think I'm going to protest the presidential election- IN MEXICO!

Protesting a church headquartered in Utah- because 54% of the state of CALIFORNIA passed prop8? What on earth is this going to accomplish? Do they think the Church has that kind of influence? I'm sure they'll see the protesters out front and pick up their bat line to Governator and let him know the church has changed their mind, so if the state of California could please deduct the Mormon 2% from the overall vote they'd really appreciate it.

2% TWO PERCENT- that's the amount of the LDS population in California. One, Two. However, the LDS church is apparently the mastermind behind prop8 passing. (I had no idea we had so much power)

Not making much more logic, the homosexual community in California thinks the best way to get their point across is to spew venom at a temple belonging to 2% of the vote.

Who really is to blame for Prop8 passing? Barack Obama. Indeed it's all Barack's fault. 70% of African American voters voted YES on 8. And due to Barack Obama being on the ticket African American voters came out in unprecedented numbers. Click here for the Slate article.

Pop quiz: What are there more of in California, Mormons or African Americans?

In reality, if the homosexual community wanted to direct their anger and frustration towards the REAL source of prop8 passing they'd target president elect Barack Obama

If they wanted to start yelling at the group that put prop8 over the top, they'd be labeling all African Americans as bigots- but dude, you can't do that! So let's go after the MORMONS.

One last thing- even if you opposed Prop8, and you relish the idea that the courts will over turn the decision made by our trusted system of democracy- we should be afraid that the voice of the people will be muted- not on this issue but any issue, because democracy is now ignored and we will now be ruled by appointed judges.

Ok, my rant is done- I feel a little bit better now.

38 comments:

Chanelle said...

So well put! Thanks for the post and keep them coming! You always put it just right.

adam said...

Isn't it great that we are free to rant on these blogs! :)

Although I disagreed with Prop. 8, I do not think that the losing side's lashing out with hateful or aggressive action is good. I can see where they're coming from, and that there is ostensibly a lot of hurt and pain and etc. behind the bitter protests. It's just a mess. Plus they have no business in my mind directing it towards the temple. Members of all types go to the temple, including myself. What would I do if I were in LA going to the temple? Carry a protest sign on my way in so I could avoid the spewing?

On the other hand, I can see why they would target the church office building. It's all just a mess.

Interesting point on Obama. Very logical.

seaside said...

And the Hispanic vote was big too.

Lets all just go after anyone who doesn't agree with us. Sort of like the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland...or, more recently, the Shites and the Sunnis.

Salt H2O said...

"On the other hand, I can see why they would target the church office building."

Help me out here- WHY oh why target the church office building located in a different state that merely advises 2% of the vote in California? TWO PERCENT! TWO! Why not target the other 52%? Instead lets focus on the church that TWO Percent of the vote belonged to! 1-2!

(I'm starting to feel like Christopher Loyd in Back to the Future constantly ranting 1.21 gigawats!)

Jon said...

If this vote is over ruled by judges we will have become the very definition of a kritocracy. Once that happens it would be a very slippery slope that I personally don't think could ever be reversed. If the voting majority is right or wrong is not relevant. We all must live with the consequences of the vote. For the better or worse.

Emily said...

I just shared your post in google reader. I hope the Obama analogy is done in sarcasm, to point out just how flawed that kind of logic is (as it is with the whole Mormons being targeted to blame).

I always like reading your blog because your opinionated and informed. So many blogs out there are scrapbooks, which is nice to keep up with friends and family, but I know I can count on you for something to think about or be entertained by.

Thanks for sharing this info--being on the other side of the country, we don't see much of this happening.

mj said...

this makes me sad. though the obvious answer to "why target the lds church?" is in the articles you link to - a majority of the money spent on the "yes on 8" campaign appears to have been donated by mormons - the official stance of the church on this topic is pretty darn moderate for a faith based in the bible. anyway, it is a pretty normal coping mechanism for people (in this case the more militant members of the LGBT community and supporters) to want to find somebody to pay for their loss. whether or not the "scapegoat" is actually the responsible party is often less relevant than whether they can be made to appear like an enemy (cough Iraq post-9/11 cough). a very organized religion could serve that purpose. i hope that it is instructive to be on the side of those that are hated for what they believe (i have voted for a similar ballot measure in my state in the past, though it was not easy for me--i mean i AM a democrat). i hope that it gives us greater empathy.

adam said...

Great Scott!

I love that movie.

As I said, you are being very "logical" and "rational" in the cognitive sense. (Although with all your CAPS it is clear you are feeling quite emotional about this too.)

To me it's mostly about feelings here. People feel hurt, fear, anxiety, pain, hatred, bigoted, defensive, etc. etc.

But I know you love reason, so here it goes:

A: People have strong feelings (as we all know) about this. Gays just want to get "married" to someone of the gender they are attracted to, just like the rest of us.

B: The church is seen by many opponents of Prop 8 as a major force behind stopping gay marriage. It donates a bunch of money. It is talked about endlessly in many church meetings, plus the church is already in the media from Mitt Romney (although I don't know how much that has to do with it).

C: Gay marriage is stopped.

=

D: People are mad at the church.

It makes perfect sense to me.

Then if you throw in the fact that the feelings surrounding being pro-Obama are so joyous and happy, how could they *really* apply your logic, as rational as it may or may not be?

Tracy said...

You didn't mention that gays & lesbians comprised 3.2% of the adult population of California 2 years ago. I'm sure it's increased since then. ;)

Steve said...

See, I told you this would happen! It is exactly what I pointed out (2-3 posts ago!) has happened to the Catholic church over the years related to abortion and birth control. Religion and politics aren't meant to mix in this country!

Even if a judge doesn't overturn it, doesn't mean it can't be on the ballot the next election, which is probably only a year from now, to overturn it. This is one of the disadvantages of having the "Proposition" system that California has, nothing is permanently the law.

jw said...

I'm pretty sure they're protesting the source of 70% of the "Yes on 8" funding, which was the LDS church and LDS members. Which then makes sense: if only 2% of Californians are LDS, why did such a gigantic proportion of the funding come from LDS sources? I think that's a valid reason to whine.

If you feel like whining. The fact of the matter is, regardless of where the money came from or who, according to exit polls (which are very crummy sources of information, of course), proposition 8 passed in California in a fair and free election. It's democracy in action, and those who lost have no solace except to, well, whine.

seaside said...

Hey Sherlock, it is widely been polled and reported in California that the biggest result of the yes on 8 campaign was the large turn out of Hispanics and African Americans. People who had never voted before but came out for Obama also voted for yes on 8. It is almost a "duh" type of thing.

African Americans that went through the civil rights years and more, are very angry with the gay community for labeling this a civil rights thing such as they went through - it is no where even close to it. Also they believe in traditional families as do Hispanics.

It is constitutional law on Nov 5 and will remain so. The way to over turn the law is very complicated and a judge can not do it in California. It has to be done by congress with over 60% vote and then signed into law by the governor. There are probably other hoops to jump through that I am not aware of.

I really like our proposition type of voting in California ...you would too if the districting of your state was lopsided and congress passed what suited them at all times.

Let the gay community demonstrate all they would like. It just doesn't phase anyone really. Especially the LDS. They are use to that sort of thing.

Anonymous said...

Do not underestimate the power and influence of a small, but well organized group.

Although Mormons represent only 2% of the population of California, the Mormon church still saw fit to announce from its podiums in Salt Lake City, Utah that the church officially and publicly supported the proposition as well as to encourage its members to support the proposition. The church not only asked that its members in California vote for the proposition, but it also asked the general church members across the English speaking world to devote their time, effort, and money towards the proposition (phone calls, text messages, making donations, etc.).

The total money raised by proponents of proposition 8 was approximately $36 million, of which 45% came from the state of Utah.

What the Mormon church asks of its members, the Mormon church gets. At least $16.2 million of the money raised was from Mormons who are directly influenced by their church leaders.

Proposition 8 was decided by approximately 504,000 votes.

You tell me that the Mormon church was not one of the most influential organizations (i.e. lobbyist) in helping to pass proposition 8 knowing these figures.

The purpose of the protests being held at Mormon temples in California and in Utah is to hold the Church and its members accountable for their actions. So that the church and its membership will know that their actions directly affect and harm the human beings that live, work, and play in their communities. It may not change the outcome of the vote, but it is important that the people of California, Utah, and the Nation see who is responsible for continued discrimination. It is also important that younger and future generations look back on history and know who the promoters of discrimination were. Just like the Mormon church has memorialized and documented the past injustices committed against its early members, it is important that my children be able to look to the past and know that that Mormon church of the 21st century persecuted and fought against the freedoms and rights of a group of people who were not that much unlike themselves.

Just as the end of the U.S. and state governments’ discrimination against women and blacks did not end over night; so also the U.S. and state governments’ discrimination against LGBT group has not/could not have ended with this one proposition. However, one day the U.S. and state governments will end this discrimination, of this I’m certain. When that day occurs, the Mormon church will again find that it was on the wrong side, and again it will come up with excuses and justifications for its past grievances, and its members will again continue to support an organization the promotes hatred and hostility towards groups of human beings who at one time did not fit their standard.

Blythe said...

Kory, this is an amazing post! I have been feeling concerned today about the protesting taking place against the church and trying to figure out how on earth we are somehow to blame for oppressing homosexuals...and your post really opened my eyes to the big picture.

Interesting that the last commenter felt the need to be anonymous. He/she points out that the church is to blame for expressing its beliefs to the members, asking the members to lend their help and support, and contributing money to the cause. It's funny...I just didn't REALIZE that the church and its members aren't allowed to have their own opinions! If only we had known it was against the rules!

Blythe said...

P.S. I hope you don't mind if I refer people to this post. You expressed the realities of this situation SO well.

adam said...

blythe, I don't think anon. was suggesting that we cannot have our own opinions, but rather what some of the results of actively promoting those opinions in the political arena may be.

Sherpa said...

Even though 2% of the State is LDS, like roughly the area where I live---California has the largest population of Mormons outside of Utah. It's not like the Church is unknown in California. Last time I was there, I thought and read the church is quite well-established. Especially in S. California.

Now what is it that the Church's publicity office has been known to say? Any publicity is good publicity.

The Black and Hispanic vote turned out in full-force on this, maybe it'll mean more mission work in Cali.

Funny though, I'm still against Prop 8, and a member in good standing. It's possible, friend. ;)

That being said, the outlash against the Church and others is too bad. Understandable, unfortunately but too bad. I wish people weren't so predictable some times.

And I agree with Steve, Adam, and MJ.

jim said...

"So that the church and its membership will know that their actions directly affect and harm the human beings that live, work, and play in their communities. "It is also important that younger and future generations look back on history and know who the promoters of discrimination were. Just like the Mormon church has memorialized and documented the past injustices committed against its early members, it is important that my children be able to look to the past and know that that Mormon church of the 21st century persecuted and fought against the freedoms and rights of a group of people who were not that much unlike themselves."

Get back to me when you have news of LDS people tarring and feathering gays, destroying their homes, killing them, and running them out of town. I've yet to find any hate mongering done by the LDS church, as you suggest.

You have two groups of people with differing views on rights and morality. That the church stood up for their side is an indication that they also feel strongly that legality of gay marriage poses a threat not to religion, but to society as a whole.

Britt said...

Sherpa where did you get your numbers for California being the largest populations of Mormons outside of Utah?
Just curious because I have been told it is Arizona. Thus the results of prop 102 marriage between a man and a woman.

Salt H2O said...

Anon-
Again, why is it those that are so quick to condemn and feel so high and mighty are the ones that never post their names?

In any case I'd like to thank you for posting your viewpoint- it gives those living outside of CA or UT an accurate account of the lunancy which the rest of us are forced to logic with.

I'm curious, did you read my post? Or the article I linked by Slate?

Or are you just so eager to point your hate in one direction and the LDS church happens to be an easy target?

I know the almighty, loved, LDS church, the church that has oh so much respect in this country-(just ask Mitt Romney) used their voodoo mind tricks on the Hispanic and Black voters.

Hold that 2% of the 54% Yes vote responsible because they sat outside the voting booths and handed out Kool-Aid.

Face it, it's easy to hate Mormons, it's easy to put all the blame on a church that isn't respected or liked by either side of the political field- right or left. It's much harder to face the real issue and that is the majority of Californians said Yes-

Do me a favor- click on the hyperlink to the Slate article posted.

And of course let me leave you with these words:



TWO PERCENT!!!!!

Salt H2O said...

Oh and Anon- if you want to get into the arguments about prop8- moral or not, legal or not, discrimitory or not....blah blah blah

we've already had that conversation on this blog- so I'm not going to let it be re-hashed in this thread.

If you want to tell me what a bigot I am please first read A Rose By Any Other Name...

davers said...

Those who think persecution of the LDS church will help their cause at all are unbelievably clueless.

It seems to me it's only a matter of time until the permissiveness popularized under the false banner of fairness will eventually find a way to destroy traditional marriage, and we can at best only hope to stave off that future as long as possible.

But I can tell you this effort by same-sex marriage proponents will only help us stave off that future.

Anonymous said...

I do not have a google account or google blog. My name is Adam. I live in Salt Lake City, Utah. If you would like my email, phone number, or address, please let me know.

Yes, I did read your post and the articles you linked, including the article you linked by Slate. My comment was not posted in hate. However, it was directed toward the LDS church not because it was an easy target but because that is the subject of your original post—why are people protesting the LDS Church’s involvement in California’s Proposition 8 when they are such a small percentage of the voter base in California. No doubt the black vote had a major impact on the passing of Proposition 8 in California, but I was addressing your comment about the protesting of the LDS church.

I’m certain that the campaign group to which the Mormon church had its members donate millions of dollars used the millions of dollars for more than handing out Kool-Aid at the polls. The LDS church and its affiliates are very careful, if not cunning, users of the money they receive. It’s not easy but appropriate to blame a church that publicly announces its support of proposition 8 and then subsequently has its members, residing in another state, donate more to the cause than all of the residents of the entire state of California. The LDS church’s image and standing, whether it’s liked or disliked, and other side issues about the church’s popularity or unpopularity are not the point. The disproportion dollar amounts raised by the LDS church and the LDS church’s involvement in a California proposition from its headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah are the point.

Nobody on this post has contested that Californians said yes or that the black vote had a major impact on the passing of proposition 8. However, the point I am making is that the LDS church and its members supported the cause in a disproportionate amount, which has subsequently brought on the protests and criticisms that your original post was addressing. As you have so forcefully pointed out, the LDS church’s membership in California is only 2% of the state’s population, yet the LDS church’s involvement amounted to nearly half of all donated funds. The LDS church’s disproportionate involvement has put them in the line of fire. The church effectively stood up for the proposition before the election and effectively had its member’s donate half of the funds used to support the proposition. Why back-pedal now? Stand up and take credit! Mormons may not have single-handedly voted in the proposition, but their involvement was tremendous—quite remarkable really. For an organization that calls only 2% of the residents of California “members” to raise half of all the funds used to support such a divisive proposition in another state is really quite unbelievable. The amount of energy and emotion that the LDS church has for discriminating against this group of human being in another state must be quite supreme.

I did read your article titled “A Rose By Any Other Name” and there is not enough time for one to even begin to address your issues.

Thanks for your posts and comments.

Rachel H said...

Thank you for this post!!!! My husband and I have been feeling similar frustrations! I am just grateful that traditional marriage was protected in the state of California. And although it is frustrating and wrong for them to persecute the LDS church, I think we can take it, and forgive them for thier frustrations with us. It is understandable to be angry and sad given the situation.

I too love your blog and I saw that video on Ann Coulter's website...so funny!!!

joanna said...

I just want to summarize:
#1) The Church has a right to encourage its members to express our beliefs on Proposition 8.
#2) When an election is held, the majority wins.
#3) That is why Obama won the presidential election.
#4) That is also why Proposition 8 was passed.

I am not happy with #3, but I respect that the majority vote (electoral votes) won. I am happy about #4 although I did not vote because I'm not in CA, but the majority won in the same manner.
Can you all imagine UPRISING that would occur if Obama DID NOT win? We'd have liberals running around like headless chickens claiming a conspiracy!! That's happening now with Proposition 8 -- they're looking for someone to blame. The GLBT community understands that the majority of Americans are not in approval of the lifestyle, they just don't understand why (again finding a blame - calling it a civil rights issue.)

seaside said...

Yes, it is true!

The LDS are organized.

They are a small group.

They do advocate that marriage between a man and woman is sacred.

Yes, they will spend their time and their money trying to safe guard this in any state or country.

They preach this type of thing every Sunday and during the week at seminaries and sometimes even at night during the week.

They have been doing it for years and will continue doing it.

They do this through out the world!

They have been doing so for over 150 years!

They will continue to do so.


Now considering all these things, how long do you think the group can continue to protest the church? How long do you really think they can maintain their offensive approach? And, most importantly, do you really think the church is going to change now after over 150years of declaring the family sacred? I don't think so.

Also, my Catholic friends feel left out and ignored in the protests. They were right there with us along with those from the local Calvary Church. Phone calls and on the corners with signs - the whole schlemill. The gay community needs to share their anger. They truely feel ignored. And what about Florida and Arizona? Why not rebel against their passing of similar laws? Oh my, so many people and not enough time to cover them all.

"davers" is correct in that we have only stayed off this for awhile (maybe a generation). But what kind of church would it be if it didn't stand up for what it believed?

It is very nice that everyone is playing their role correctly.

seaside said...

ps - my daughter reminded me that McDonalds, Google, Apple computers, that coffee company that is everywhere and I can't think of it's name...and other corporations "supported the cause" no on 8 "in a disproportionate amount".

That is their right. My Catholic and Evangelical friends and I do not plan on picketing their establishments. We will leave them alone.

Sneakers said...

I frequently travel to Southern California for work and occasionally attend church with relatives while there. The announcements I heard from the pulpit and the efforts of the various congregations were undertaken very carefully and very civilly in every instance. Obviously, I cannot speak to every California LDS congregation, but I believe that the LDS church tried very carefully to maintain an appropriate level of civic involvement in this very important issue.

It should be noted that in my Utah LDS congregation, NO Prop 8 announcements were made or donations solicited. If LDS church members in Utah significantly contributed to the Prop 8 campaign, it was not at the request of the general Church leadership. I myself wanted to make a donation, but realized that I hadn't been asked and that this was an issue for California voters.

On a larger scale, I wish that the homosexual community would accept that a great portion of this country views homosexuality as a lifestyle choice -- not an immutable personal characteristic such as race or gender. As Kory mentioned in a previous post, much of the campaigning by the homosexual population is to make homosexuality morally acceptable to those of us that do not find it so.

Frankly, I'm tried of such campaigns in all forms. Where does it end? It's constantly being implied to us that promiscuity, swinging, drug use, pornography, and philandering are all acceptable behaviors. As a society, we get to determine what is acceptable to us based on general consensus, and we form laws based on that consensus.

The goal of the constitution and it's amendments is not to allow a minority the power to coerce their worldview on others. The same principles that prevent the state from sponsoring a religion also prevent the state from defining our morality. We determine the state's view of morality based on how we vote and by who we elect.

Lauren said...

Daniel just forwarded this to me and I thought it seemed like something you'd like:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-cannick8-2008nov08,0,3295255.story

Can't wait to see you this weekend!

Anonymous said...

waiting for your post on this:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/11/baptizing.dead.jews.ap/index.html

By David Kupelian said...

To Adam:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

One of the reasons why so much money came from out of state is because members in every state knew that everyone's eyes were on California and that if California fell, they could be next.

Here's another post for you to read:
http://www.thegayrightsagenda.blogspot.com

We're not "gay haters" we are just trying to protect our own rights.

Della Hill said...

David Kupelian-
You said what I was going to.
I love that quote.
I also agree that people who are in favor of marriage between a man and a woman need to stand up, speak out, and support this cause regardless of where they live and where the current legal battle is being fought.
Because even if it isn't in my back yard it will be sooner or later.
Again, "We're not 'gay haters', we are just trying to protect our own rights". And we'll do it again.
-Della

Frank said...

Of course we're going after the LDS church. Members of the church funded 77% of the advertising campaign for No on Prop 8. The advertising campaign went almost as far as saying vote for Prop 8 or the gays will rape your children.


Then an LDS spokesman named Marvin Perkins, actually did say that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrwj7SVWBMA

I forgave my LDS neighbors for Prop 22. This time the ad campaign and the explicit libel in the video have made that impossible. I fully support the anti-Prop 8 protests.

davers said...

Wow Frank. Marvin Perkins said nothing about rape. He's talking about actions of those who want to promote the gay lifestyle and you know it's true. That's not hate ... those are facts. In fact, if you are truly proud of those activities you shouldn't be condemning his comments but celebrating them and admitting to them with pride and satisfaction - and justifying those actions.

If however you think those actions he's referring to are wrong then don't shoot Marvin, the messenger - instead get with your community and convince them how you feel about their re-educating efforts.

Sensationalizing responses ("rape", gimme a break!) like yours is exactly why people voted for Prop 8, because they can see through your tactics of trying to drown out truth from the opposition with your screaming lies and misleading innuendo.

Salt H2O said...

Anon-
77% of the funding? WOW that number seems to grow each day! Then again after seeing a group that holds 2% of the population of California responsible for the choices of each individual that walked into that voting booth- I wouldn't expect you to be exceptionally good with numbers.

Do you know who exactly ran the Prop8 campaign? Do you know who created the ads to which your so offeneded? Wouldn't it be best to hold THOSE people accountable versus those that contributed to the cause? Granted a good number of donations came from out of state- ON BOTH sides of the argument. So if prop8 gets repealled and they start teaching my nieces about homosexuality in public schools, or my friends that are firefighters are forced to walk in Gay pride parades- should I then go down to my local McDonald's and protest? They contributed.

By that logic- if I don't see alternative energy, a universalized healthcare system, millions of new jobs and my taxes go down in the next four years- I should then picket Warren Buffet's house and buisnesses across the country. Warren Buffet sponsered Obama! He helped pay for Obama's promises! If I'm disallusioned apparently HE is the one I should go after.

As to your Marvin Perkins comment- Davers addressed it perfectly so I'm simply going to say- put down the koolaid.

Lastly, your LDS neighbors don't want your forgiveness- just the same respect they give you to believe what you want to believe.

A church that is accustomed to being hated, that has a history steeped in persecution, these protests do nothing but embolden members spirits and generate sympathy from the other 52% of Californians that voted with them.

Anonymous said...

I just don't see why I should have to pay taxes to educate Mormon children at all if I'm going to be treated as a second class citizen and will not be allowed marriage.

BTW, I refuse to recognize Mormon marriages. Your children are bastards to me.

Jeri and Amy said...

Anonymous (Adam),
I have to admit, I found your comment a little laughable when you stated:
"it is important that the people of California, Utah, and the Nation see who is responsible for continued discrimination. It is also important that younger and future generations look back on history and know who the promoters of discrimination were."

I agree... and I think the answer will be obvious: It is the group of people vandalizing the churches and threatening violence to the members of a single religion.

It may be true that Prop 8 received considerable funding from LDS church members, but that should not warrant assault, vandalism, and other felonious acts! (Last time I checked, donating funds to a ballot initiative is not illegal, immoral, or evidence of hate... but I cannot conceive of a scenario in which vandalism and battery are reflections of love and tolerance.) As Kory has repeatedly argued, while Church members helped fund the issue, we were not the ones who voted it in. We simply lack the numbers in California to determine the outcome of any election.

As someone who supported 8 very reluctantly, this violent backlash has only strengthened me in my stance. I agonized about Prop 8 because I completely believe in Equality for All, love, and tolerance. I felt no triumph in "my side's" win; I mourned for what this victory would mean for people I love.

Nevertheless, in light of recent events and the hypocrisy displayed since the election, I am no longer as neutral as I once was. If the animosity were directed to Prop 8 supporters in their entirety, it would be understandable... but to argue against intolerance by displaying such blatant bigotry against one Church is deplorable.

Thank you for illustrating the real issue: that hate mongering IS alive and well. I have often marveled that the "love" and "tolerance" the No on 8 camp advocated was apparently only reserved for their own adherents.

Jillian said...

Speaking of laughable, "BTW, I refuse to recognize Mormon marriages. Your children are bastards to me."

Is this the part where you do the Miss Piggy huff and walk away?