I have to vent to some one.
Somehow, I see where this is going.
Yeah, this is as clear as Crystal Pepsi. But honestly, I'd rather someone lie to me, yet still respect me. Sometimes a lie is needed or appropriate (like telling your wife her butt isn't big or your mother in law that her meatloaf really is good), plus you can usually wiggle around it or change your mind in the future, "What I meant to say is..." Whereas being disrespectful NEVER has a good reason behind it and only shows the true nature of a person.
I guess it really depends on the situation... if it is a little white lie to not unnecessarily hurt someone's feeling, then the lie... other wise I would rather just know how it is.
A lie is disrespectful. So just disrespect me and get it over with. Don't lie and make it worse.
I don't think it was about respect, at least not to me. It's about a man who is supposed to be representing his state, supposed to be a leader, supposed to be (imho) a beacon and an example for society, acting like my 2 year-old when he's hungry and tired.At the same time, Re: lies - if you can give me someone who has NOT lied in someone's view, I will jump for joy, because it seems to be impossible to avoid. Just check out factcheck during any election. ALL candidates lie CONSTANTLY. ALL of them. That doesn't make it right, but if anything tells me that it's not that simple. One person's lie often seems to be another's truth. Ug. Sorry for the rant. :)
You can be respectful, and still tactfully call someone out on a lie. What happened a few nights ago was tacky, wrong and embarassing.
Incidentally, here is the factcheck analysis of the speech:http://factcheck.org/2009/09/obamas-health-care-speech/Seems Joe was wrong (i.e. Obama didn't lie on that point), at least according to factcheck.
I can stand someone being disrespectful to me...it just means they're an a-hole.I can't stand being lied to. This means they're willfully trying to mislead me and nine times out of ten cause me/pretend to save me from harm. I have a much harder time dealing with stuff like that.
Brent/Robin - But can't you see where someone lying to you could be used to protect you or get you to do something good for you that you may not yet know is good for you or you may not do for yourself? Like parents making up all those silly kid stories about Santa, Easter Bunny, etc. to encourage the kids' imaginations. Or how about eating your vegetables! Or how about a real adult example, your spouse not saying you make horrible food/parenting skills/in bed/made a good career choice b/c the truth isn't as important as the end result, fostering your love and growth, not to mention long term happiness?!?!!? Just saying. Besides, if you lie to me, I can always find out the truth and know not to trust you in the future, but I can stil respect you for other things you contribute to my life/relationship; whereas if you just flat out disrespect me, what value as a person do you have left to bring to the table?
Somehow I think lying could be considered disrespectful :D (Steve-- I don't think it's a fair assumption that lying is the best course in those scenarios or even good in the long run. I'm just sayin' ;) You make it sound like being honest has to mean being a jerk.)A single lie doesn't bother me as much as low down dirty deceivers do. And I'm not talking simply about the lies that you can verify on "factcheck", but the ones that go much deeper into the values and principles people live by.
The Cafferty file promted this post. In their article Jack said, "South Carolina’s Joe Wilson shouted “You lie” at the president — after Mr. Obama denied that proposed health care legislation would mean free health coverage for illegal aliens. The fact is they get free health care now by just walking into any emergency room, and nothing in the proposed legislation would change that." Jack agreed that it was indeed a lie- however the article was about Joe Wilson. I value honesty over respect, but I was really curious if I was alone on that, because obviously Cafferty and other members of the press find respect more important than honesty.
I would absolutely rather be disrespected than be lied to. A lie is deliberate. There is no excuse for a lie. It is intentional. Sometimes people's emotions get the best of them and they say or do things that maybe they shouldn't say...or at least in a manner they shouldn't say it in. But more often than not...it's an emotional response to something that makes someone act disrespectfully. Dishonesty displays a much bigger lack of true character to me. And, of course...it's a show of disrespect as well...
Sorry but justifying how immature Joe Wilson acted only shows your own immaturity. I agree that there is a respectful way to call someone out on a lie. There is no situation I can think of where his actions should be justified. No mature adult acts that way, sorry. Whether I agree with Obama or not (I don't) and whether I agree with his health care plan or not (I also don't) I would never have chosen to act in such a disrespectful and immature manner. It only makes him look foolish. And I'm tired of people cheering that he did some great thing.
Brooke,No one here has justified what Joe Wilson did. It's a simple question of what is worse- I think lying is worse than disrespect, but I also think killing is worse than lying. That doesn't mean the lier is justified. I guess I need to be a bit more clear: After reading the Cafferty file which agreed that Obama indeed was lying but focused on the direspect not the lie (again neither of which are good)I was curious as to which the majority of society deemed worse, because I may very well be alone in my sentiments. People PLEASE read all the comments before jumping to conclusions.
According to the Cafferty file, illegal immigrants shouldn't get ANY health care? None? In practice it would be barbaric! Obviously it is a complicated issue, but we can't turn away the sick and the afflicted, at least not in principle, or in our hearts. We also can't tell them, "well, you brought this on yourself by coming here so too bad." We have to give them something. At least, that's my opinion.
Disrespect is subjective. Truth is objective. I can handle a subjective disrespect within my own subjective world. However an objective truth, or its antithesis, are more valuable and harder to weasle your way out of.
"Truth is objective."I love it. Now if anyone in politics actually had some of that objective truth, we'd really be on to something!
Well, if Joe Wilson or anyone else that doesn't like illegal immigrants or others getting free healthcare don't like it, why don't they do something about THAT instead of making such a fuss about a bill that is trying to give healthcare to AMERICANS, not illegals?!?! As it stands now, they DO get free healthcare and WE are paying for it. If there were a public option, essentially, the govt would suck up that cost, not us individual policy holders, and our premiums would go down, yet people in desperate need for treatment still could, which is never going to go away based upon (thankfully) doctors and healthcare people that have a heart. I'm tired of people like Joe Wilson that find a problem with everything and are more afraid of change than anything else and never actually do anything. It's people like him that ruin Congress and ultimately our country.
SteveFirst of all, if the government sucks up that cost, you suck up that cost. The government does not get any money except from its tax payers. Therefore, a government option just shifts your money around, making it more expensive, it doesn't make it cheaper for you.Second. Progress and change should not be the role of government. The role of government should be to protect the rights of individuals. Individuals, businesses and other organizations should be the only method of social change and engineering.
I found it interesting when I spent time in Korea to learn that loyalty was considered a higher virtue than honesty. While most Americans would say that honesty is the best policy the Korean culture (and I don't know whether this applies to other Asian cultures) says loyalty is the best policy.While many Americans would typically see someone who lies for the sake of a friend as being morally bankrupt, Koreans consider you morally bankrupt if you don't lie for the sake of a friend. The Americans were considered especially brutal by Korean management when it came to employee peer reviews.To me this is like the difference between having one's moral compass calibrated to magnetic north instead of true north. Anyway, while it seems intuitively obvious to many of us (self included) that dishonesty is ultimately disloyalty asurprising number of people who are American simply don't see it that way. Mafia mentality.
Says Steve: "As it stands now, they DO get free healthcare and WE are paying for it"... and therein lies the problem, and it's one that can be remedied without throwing the benefits of a free market out the window.
davers, how do we remedy that problem without just turning them all away at the hospital?
The fact that the "lie" was with respect to a health care plan is irrelevant to me. To lie when claiming to be telling the truth to dispel lies and then being identified as doing such, well that's a blow to the president's integrity. He's just not doing himself any favors. (And honesty is only a part of integrity).
This is similar to parenting. I would rather have my children disrespect me (because I can call them on it right then and there and discipline them accordingly) than to lie to me.(Because I either have to get them to admit that they've lied -sometimes next to impossible - or prove that they've lied -even harder - in order to discipline them)
Victory in Progress - Obviously I know that govt money comes from taxpayers. Hell, taxpayers pay my salary, ha. However, when you have close to 300 million people sharing the burden, the "increase" in cost will be negligible to most of us. In fact, unless taxes are raised, there will be NO increase in cost. Just shifting of money around IN government from different programs. VIP, you are clearly a libertarian, which I used to be. I even was a party member in college for a bit. I agree with you on the govt not getting involved with social and personal liberties, something the last administration practically destroyed and Obama hasn't done enough to restore, however, healthcare is one of those things that government can have a role in, much like military, to ensure a safe and healthy populace.
So, help me understand. "The Lie" was that illegal immigrants actually ARE covered via ERs?Again, I still think that anyone who thinks that illegal immigrants should not get ANYTHING in the way of health care, gov't intervention or not, is barbaric.
Would illegal immigrants get healthcare under the president's policy? It's a simple yes or no question and if the answer is yes, the president did indeed lie. I'm sure the president agrees with you that it is indeed barbaric, and he should have owned it, instead of being dishonest.
In that case, under the current plan they get coverage as well, so you're saying that POTUS tried to make it sound like that would stop?
All he had to say was that "the proposed legislation does not contain provisions for illegals" The stupidest of spin docs could have come up with that. He instead, chose to lie !
He didn't lie. The current proposal does not give coverage to illegals. Pretty clear. There is a difference between providing for and taking away, sure, but I don't even see Republicans trying to PREVENT care to illegals, at least none that plan on getting reelected. Besides, the cost of illegals on our health system is LESS than the total cost of the uninsured, so this is a minor sticking point.
My question really wasn't whether or not it was a lie- that debate is going on in much more detailed terms elsewhere.Cafferty thought it was a lie, but found direspect more offensive than dishonesty. So I guess the question I'd pose to Adam and Steve is, if you thought it was a lie, would you still think that Wilson was more appalling than Obama?
Yes, as I said way up in my first post, I find a lie better than disrespect, just like that old crank Cafferty.
I'm confused because I thought liberals practically lynched George W. because they thought he lied about WMDs (when what he did was forward information from intelligence that was believed to be correct.) If someone says something they believe to be true, that is not a lie. Liberals must think that someone lying is absolutely horrendous, yet when Obama lies, nobody pays attention except conservatives.
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